RT Dec 29
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We welcome you to this fifth meeting of the Round Table, a place where Gorean issues may be discussed in a friendly atmosphere of learning, where opinions will be heard with civil respect,  and ofttimes (being Gorean) .. we will agree to disagree.

You will notice the room may be moderated, to allow for an orderly flow of conversation.

An issue will be outlined, giving the facts that are known to the one who presents it.  The panel of Free Elders will comment, question, explore the subject as fully as possible.  At that point, G/guests will be invited to question or comment.
( THIS DISCUSSION DISPLAYS ONLY THE PERTINENT TEXT TO THE DISCUSSION)

"due to holiday activities, attendance was smaller than usual so rules were relaxed for a friendly debate." ..

<Chaucer> I spent most of my life as a journalist, so I approach most institutions, including Gor, with a a fair amount of cynicism .
I've been in Gor a long time . Until about three years ago, I would quake with fear when an assassin entered the room and I had some fear of Warriors. Then things started changing. Gor for me became an intellectual pursuit

<Fanci`> can you expand on that, please?   intellectual .. compared to what?

<Chaucer> I began to look not at the books but at on-line Gor and the people in it and the roles they choose to play . In a way, it is an amateur pshychological and sociological study

Fanci` smiles ... indeed, it can be that.  a fertile field.

Chaucer> And perhaps, my first real conclusion might might be a jumping off point for a debate

Fanci` looks up with interest

<Chaucer> Is Gor a quasi-religious cult?

Fanci` chuckles quietly ... Fanci` stuffs a rep cloth in her mouth to choke back "well, if it walks like a.....

<{CSF}nyla> why that particular definition, Master? nyla feels it is often an escape from reality...(spoken respectfully)

Chaucer> For most it is, nyla.  For others, the books have become as the Bible, The Torah or the Koran. 

<Fanci`> also ..if one looks at those things that characterise cults .. the similarity is striking.

{CSF}nyla nods to the Master...."but, people should take parts of all those books..each document has good things to contribute, but yes to some, the scrolls to some are the Bible, and even in the scrolls each thing tends to be different at times

Chaucer listens , "there are what I call Gorean fundamentalists.  Others call them purists.  But they are one and the same."

<{CSF}nyla> IRC has tended to twist and warp the scrolls in what Norman wrote...

<Chaucer> In what way?

<{CSF}nyla> some things on IRC are IRCisms nyla has been told, Master

<Chaucer> Give me an example

<{CSF}nyla> nyla "does" agree with you however in many respects, Master.... hmmm you would ask that... in the scrolls the serves are not as long and flowery..... the slaves are slaves and the Masters are the Masters...if that makes sense...

<Chaucer> I will argue that point later, but I will readily admit there is no such thing as the bazi tea ceremony.

<{naia}C> slavery is definitely not as it was written in the books, that is for sure....for one thing, there would be no unowned slaves

<{CSF}nyla> true, sister...

<Chaucer> May I give you another example?

<{CSF}nyla> of course, Master...nyla is eager to learn and listen

<Chaucer> nyla, can you name the moons?

<Fanci`> being a static document, it can be black and white .. so the profiles can be drawn much more clearly.  irc is humans behind each monitor . .and each interaction has something "special" that keeps it from falling into a cut-and-dried protocol.

{CSF}nyla sighs...to be honest, no...

<Chaucer> Good.  Only one has a name

<{CSF}nyla> nyla has read, but she doesn't remember..she has heard a name

<Chaucer> It is Prison, the smallest

<{CSF}nyla> one thing that is different on IRC...is the color of the silks

<{naia}C> yes, Mistress..online is a different medium and as such has to bend to the needs of the people here.

<Chaucer> IRC has added hand maiden and celeste

((Editor's Note:  It has been stated that the names of the moons were mentioned in the newer publications of the books.))

<{CSF}nyla> a slave wasn't dressed as such in the scrolls...except perhaps a dancer...etc..

<{CSF}nyla> Prison?

<Fanci`> and of course there is the well-known aberration of white ka-la-na :)

<{CSF}nyla> Is there such a thing as a celane melon?

Chaucer chuckles

<{naia}C> naia still can't find anyone with a book quote for a mug...lol

<{CSF}nyla> It isn't easy being a kajira now days and meeting all the different hmmmm "requirements"...

<Chaucer> Another topic. .. you just gave it to me.   Who are more important in on-line Gor?  The slaves?  Ot the Free?

<{naia}C> well..can't really have one without the other, from either end, Master...would be a waste of time

<{CSF}nyla> well...you will see my name is "{CSF}" nyla....my Master believes he is the most important one & should come first...as does nyla.... but in essence as Mistress will concur with, Master and I feed each other...

<Chaucer> here's my thinking .  On-line Gor could not exist without the slaves

<{naia}C> a Master told naia once, a slave gives the Master His power...naia thinks that is specially true online

<Chaucer> The thought of a bunch of Masters coming on-line each night just to be with themselves is laughable

<{naia}C> but a bunch of slaves coming online is just as much so

<Chaucer> Really?   The slaves relate better

<{naia}C> but what is the point?

Fanci` nods to {naia}C , "exactly"

<{naia}C> who to serve...how to serve...noone to serve

<Fanci`> it takes the balance .. the chemistry -  or Gor doesn't work

<{CSF}nyla> If one is a slave, a kajira, with a burning belly, she could not feed that fire with only her sisters..it is something a Master ignites

<Chaucer> Here is one of the things I have learned in my intellectual pursuit .  Most of the slaves are actually far more influential than the Free and, on balance, considerably smarter, too

<Fanci`> lol! now .. Chaucer .. you don't expect any of the slaves to admit that - (though they would agree, silently) as would most Free

<{naia}C> part of that might be that it is extremely hard work being slave..and those that aren't smart quickly fade from view here

<{CSF}nyla> well, my Master will say of this girl..that she has a head on her shoulders...

<Chaucer> Exactly, naia .  Being a slave is hard work

<{CSF}nyla> It is very hard work.....nyla has learned that the last few months...but she is willing to do so for her Master..

<Chaucer> Which allows me to segue into another topic

<{naia}C> naia too, sis...she puts her heart into learning all she can, all the time to be better and better

 <Chaucer> Would you agree with the following statement? On-line Gor is a highly regimented and extremely structured world in which there is little room for original thought
Chaucer listens to the deafening silence

<{CSF}nyla> hmmmmm depends on the Master, Master

<Fanci`> thinking ... in the Classic Gor Homes, what you say is true .  they hold there is but one way .. one Gor .. and anything else is the work of HNGs and heretics

<{CSF}nyla> a Master must first know himself to control another... if a Master "is" a Master he would allow original thought among his slaves

<Fanci`> so .. it can be quite stultifying.

<{CSF}nyla> Do Master's wish to "lap" or "alcove" all the time? hmm bette rnot answer that, Master! ROFL

<Chaucer> Excellent point, nyla

<{naia}C> it is also a challange to be unique and creative, within that regime and strictness

<Chaucer> The only real room for creativity is in the serves

<{CSF}nyla> people must hold intelligent conversations, Master..it is part of the scheme of a relationship

<{naia}C> and also within the showcase of others that are struggling for that same creativity

((Editor's Note:  There was a recap for Korus`, who entered late.  His comments are in reference to the opening statements.))

<Korus> I could throw my two tarsk bits in on the quasi-religious thing if you want?

<Fanci`> if you look at the definition of a cult .. and compare it with the dyed-in-the-wool Gorean .. the similarities are striking.

<Korus> well, to me, since there is nothing religious in me, feel Gor, for me, is a path thru life.  I feel it is the way that I spend my life, Honor, or dishonorably that counts for me

<Chaucer> Does one need Gor for that?

<Korus> I have always lived my life in the most Honorable way I could as Honor is our own

<Chaucer> Excellent point.

<Korus> not given, bought or anything, its earned and even my enemys will say I have Honor.

<{CSF}nyla> but even though some how honorable....just as in r/l, not all are...there are some real dishonorable stinkers out there

<Chaucer> So true

<Korus> aye, very true nyla

<{CSF}nyla> Master Korus & Master Skye hold honor to be imperative in both their o/l & r/l situations...

<{naia}C> and, unfortunately, honor means different things to different people

<{CSF}nyla> they are some of the few nyla trusts

<Chaucer> Explain that. my sweet.

<{CSF}nyla> what does honor mean to you, Master Chaucer? - hmmm sorry, after sister

<{naia}C> sometimes its easy to fool yourself that you are doing the honorable thing, if its what you want...its not so easy to do things that are honorable when they are not necessarily going to be pleasant

Chaucer thinks

Korus nods, "but is being dishonest with yourself Honorable?"

<Chaucer> nyla, first I will admit I am not always honorable. 

<Chaucer> The ends ared ultimately honorable, I would like to think, but sometimes my hot temper makes the means less than honorable

Korus nods in understanding

<Chaucer> My definition of honor:  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

<Fanci`> well .. this starts to get a little esoteric .. since Honor is inherently a personal concept.  I am reminded that in a war, each side always thinks God is on there side, along with Right and Honor.  It would seem, on the face of it, that both cannot be right.

<{naia}C> that was naia's point, Mistress...honor is in the eyes of the beholder

<Merigold> <nods to Fanci> indeed. 

<Chaucer> In fact, he's probably on neither's side

<Korus> aye

<Fanci`> Honor .. in the conventional sense .. is acting within the framework of the highest standards of ONE'S OWN COMMUNITY.

<Merigold> ah.  excellent definition Fanci.

<Fanci`> not necessarily consistent with any other community.

<{CSF}nyla> nyla thinks that honor is honesty in relationships and what you do interacting with others..

<Korus> no Sis, there I disagree with you

<Fanci`> listening

<Fanci`> social groups that are scattered .. remote from each other .. develop their own concepts of Honor.  Based on the particular needs of the community.

<Korus> to me, Honor is in doing whats right no matter how much it !. hurts yourself and 2. Is the best thing for the greatest number of persons.  Present or not present.

<Merigold> I had a big ol' disagreement with a Gorean assasin person who told me that of course ordering your slave to lie on your behalf was honorable... community values is just about the only thing that covers the breadth necessary.  honor for samurai was killing themselves in the prescribed manner when they had failed OR to protest an order from their superior that they could not obey...

<{CSF}nyla> well, see in many ways I agree with Mistress Fanci`..although ya'll may boot me for this...

Chaucer looks to nyla

<Merigold> as for the greatest good for the greatest number... there's an excellent short story by Ursula LeGuin called "those who walk away from omelas"  about the opposition between doing what was right in their hearts and it being different from the greatest good of the majority

<Fanci`> yes .. what many would consider cowardly .."ritual suicide" .. is to others an utmost honorable act.

<{CSF}nyla> see, let us think of the Palestinians, the Jordanians, etc. etc.... they send people out to assassinate & kill...

<Korus> nay nyla, we will not

<{CSF}nyla> they are terrorists to us.... but if one studies sociology....one finds that there is a difference in customs and how one is raised...

<{CSF}nyla> they are taught to defend the Koran, the believe in what they do... I do not believe it it..but how can we find them NOT honorable

Korus nods

<{CSF}nyla> I don't like them...I hate what they do...but it is "their" way..just as in tribes...there are many ways we do not aspire...

<Fanci`> within their culture .. they are behaving honorably.

<Chaucer> Let me play journalist for a minute and do what I do best... ask questions.

<{CSF}nyla> how can we judge honor??

<Korus> the Koran does not say to murder your ememy to get him to agree with you.

<Merigold> honor is kind of like loyalty then