RT Nov 18
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We welcome you to this second meeting of the Round Table, a place where Gorean issues may be discussed in a friendly atmosphere of learning, where opinions will be heard with civil respect,  and ofttimes (being Gorean) .. we will agree to disagree.

You will notice the room will be moderated, to allow for an orderly flow of conversation.

An issue will be outlined, giving the facts that are known to the one who presents it.  The panel of Free Elders will comment, question, explore the subject as fully as possible.  At that point, G/guests will be invited to question or comment.
( THIS DISCUSSION DISPLAYS ONLY THE PERTINENT TEXT TO THE DISCUSSION)

PhantomOp: what are the topics for discussion tonight?

 Fanci` 1/ In Gor, there were no unowned girls .. every girl was owned in some capacity or was a runaway.
 
Are online girls who flit around, shopping for a Master (or perhaps, a better deal with a new/reconditioned Master) a problem for online Gor? Does this go into the current problem of disrespect, poorly trained girls,etc>

PhantomOp: Many Goreans seem to treat slaves with callous indifference, or outright rudeness, simply because they are slave. Is this an acceptable means of handling living creatures? One shows more courtesy to a dog or cat than is seen oft times in the interactions between Free and slave.

PhantomOp: the other thing that irks a slave  is having to show respect to Some that do not merit it, but are granted it because their Name is Capped

Fanci`: here is the first Issue .. for Y/your consideration:

Maitre_Charon raises my hand rises and bows to the FWmy thanks Fanci"

Korus`: it seems that we on online Gor do not have the possible situation to have all girls owned by slavers  it would make it very difficult for the slaves to become wanted in many homestones  as there are many servers and many channels on each

Maitre_Charon: It strikes me as completely erroneur to say all girls were owned in the books.  

Maitre_Charon: however, you asked if it is a problem for online gor

Fanci`: some say it is, Maitre_Charon .. I pose the question for the comments of this group.

Maitre_Charon: Many problems face this community, not least being the way men treat both new and experienced girls, placing them on a pedestal

Maitre_Charon: To my mind, a very ungorean approach, yet one that is creping onwards

Fanci`: that is a concern to some, I know .. but it strays from our question, I think....which is about the plethora of unowned girls on irc Gor.

Maitre_Charon> Let each man look to himself and ask "do i really control these girls, or do they control me"

Fanci`: that is a concern to some, I know .. but it strays from our question, I think.

Maitre_Charon: No, I don't believe it does Fanci`   surely the problem is with the plethor of "uncontrolled" girls

Korus` raises his hand

Maitre_Charon: if the men let these girls run riot, ignoring the precepts of gor, then they fail us all

Grey0: I do not see how "all" girls online can be owned....

Grey0: even when collared, they could come on in another nick   it is not as if we can actually own them and control then as if it were real life

Grey0: we do NOT have control in actuality

Korus`: some of the worst acting slaves are collared! it seems to my mind that we, as FM are not being selective in ko'laring those that are worthy, many will ko'lar anything on two legs

Maitre_Charon: hmm. that depends how you define worthy   but no matter

GothicRaven: Both IceMan and Charon have brought very good points to light. I shalt try to be brief... Even in the books of Norman, very few slaves were ever found 'unko-lared'.    While I can speak only for myself... I must state that a distinction must be carefully maintained and kept between what is Gor and what is Earth. The two mores and moral customs differ greatly, so too do their distinctions of what is a "Master."  There is a certain amount of control, even in this medium.  It begins with ourselves. The first rule of Mastery is Master one's self.

GothicRaven: I must also respect that Honour, above all things, allows that a man or woman...Has the right to keep what he can. If it is his custom, even as it is in the books. i.e.: Customs of Cos and Ar, each custom differs.  I am of an earlier Gor, where there were no NKZ, NCZ....Yet I cannot condemn a man/or woman, if she is capable, for there were women of power in the scrolls as well, by ruling what he can in the manner that suits him. If I visit a place that does not allow the word 'slut' or such...and this offends me...as a Gorean, it is my self-Mastery that I do not go there again. That is the limit of diplomacy that IRC demands - for truly if we were Gorean, truly Gorean, the IRC technology would not be at our disposal.

Fanci` looks to GothicRaven with a smile   thank You

Jon: the Free have to take repsonsibility, the girls are encouraged in the behavior by coddling the girls....sheltering the poor little darlings from those who call them on their behaviors...: the bigger problem is the Free not the girls themselves, as Free we need to look at our own actions first   it breeds the disrespect that you meantion in the statement   for why respect a Free when a girl can run to another Free with a sobstory and basically be told 'there, there'  : there is no cure to the problem while this sort of thing goes on

 ra`: ra` thanks her Owner for allowing her to speak   ra`: this slut thinks a very large problem with girls flitting here and there on irc Gor is a lack of culpability for their behavior on their part or the parts of their Owners....the girls are told they are not sluts....are not beasts....are 'treasures' with 'gifts' to give....it's hardly any wonder that these girls placed on D/s pedestals cause problems when addressed by others who truly believe in a Gorean Master/slave relations   as to how it can be controlled? various nets have tried various ways of dealing with it

ra`: from requiring unowned girls to be in a 'slave pen' channel.....taken out of there to another channel by a FP who vouches for control of the slut  ... to requiring that all girls take a city ko`lar...or perhaps a channel ko`lar could be likened to that on irc servers   : bottom line though is that the girls pretty much know that they will not be taken to task in most places....   if the Free banned girls for behavior more frequently.....or imposed restrictions on them....quit trying to make subbies into slaves....perhaps some of the problems would be rectified   ra` would imagine that most of the bans in channels are for FPs....and not for slaves

 Maitre_Charon: I would like to addres a point GothicRaven made   If we condone the behaviour of others, if we fail to police our own small society, then what does that say about us, as goreans?  If we coondone with a "its another channels business" do we not denigrate the lifestyle for all?

GothicRaven: Charon, I govern myself. Would you wish me to govern you? I greatly doubt this.   I do not intend it as insultive.   Far from it.  For much of what I have heard we agree on many points.

 GothicRaven: My appreciations however for your patience and your time.  I did not intend to degenerate your forum. Nor do I wish to annoy those whose beliefs differ from mine own. I respect their right to hold them and keep them.

5/ Some channel owners state in their channel topic KZ, FCZ: .. or perhaps > NKZ, NFCZ  

 If it is not stated, is it assumed to be a KZ an CZ?  : (Or, the reverse?)  If a Kill or Collar occurs in a channel (despite the channel's statement it does not recognize such) .. does it have any validity? If not, would it be clearly invalid  and show the Doer as an idiot?

Fanci` smiles wryly .. well, they happen with alarming frequency ..  someone thinks they matter.

Kytherea: it can whe it's followed by a nick/kill... or k'line

_Vitellius_: kline only, really   how does one kill a nick, or collar someone who doesn't wish it on this medium? the point is moot, I think, in reality   and we are claiming we are real, no?

 Jon: I grew up and stopped playing those games when I was about 8     

Fanci`: one might make the case that there is the big X .. up top .. but fact is, some slaves feel paralyzed when a Free is raping, beating, collaring .. whatever. Others (Free and slave) feel obligated to accept Kills. I feel no obligation to buy into roleplaying

Fanci` nods .. they feel its a matter of Honor .. they accept the rules of Gor and believe that is one of them.  : the question is .. is it a rule? and if so, whose rule?

Fanci` looks to the clock and notes the Promised Two Hour Limit has been reached. Any who would like to stay and debate further .. are very welcome :)