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2/ Some Goreans switch occasionally from Free to slave. Some switch daily. <Fanci`> How is a reasonable way to regard switches and evaluate their behavior and comments? Should their history be forgotten, and deal with them (at any given time) on the basis of the current nick? Or must one keep in mind, they may appear as the opposite persona next time? Shold their view be given extra wieght because they see Gorean matters from both sides? <Alxhandra> again i can only speak from experience ... i was slave and i do not switch back and forth ... i tend to agree with much of what the girls have said tho ... Alxhandra> how can it feel to the girls, to have a sister ... and then the next minute try to seriously serve her ???? ... neema this one begs to speak, if allowed Fanci` looks to Korus`, who raised hand second <Alxhandra> also ... how can someone who is in constant change of persona <trying to word this as to not offend> ... <Fanci`> go ahead, Alxhandra <Alxhandra> okay i can't say this any other way and i am sorry if i offend anyone ... and remember all this IS just my opinion ... belgara{TLI} has very formed opinions on switches, but will wait until spoken to in order to voice them. <Alxhandra> how can someone who is in constant change of persona expect their ideas be taken seriously ... sure in a place where switches are readily accepted yes, but in my 4 years online Gor, i have not seen this as being readily accepted ... LadyIsollae agrees with Alxhandra <Aether> I've seen slaves whom say they are slaves but manipulate Master's as if they where their Masters to me they seem switches... {CSF}nyla nods in agreement Korus` nods DrkRider waits till the gorgeous Alx blows off steam Fanci` nods to Aether <Alxhandra> i feel as tho i have earned the respect i am given for my opinion for always being consistent, i was released, this was not my choice, but here i am free, and perhaps one day i will find a man will he wish me as a fc or wish me as a slave ? ... who knows, that is an individual situation between two ppl ... <Alxhandra> for now my opinion on this matter is i find it hard to instill alot of faith in someone who switches constantly if there is no good and i mean VERY good reasoning behind it... thinks she is finished now DrkRider smiles Fanci` looks to Korus` .. your thoughts, Bro? Alxhandra grins at DR Korus` stands <Korus`> Thanks Sis Iron`Bear nods to Alxhandra in respect for her fine words <Grey0> valid point, Alxhandra <Korus`> well I have seen several of these type Alxhandra smiles Fanci` listens <Korus`> at one time I accepted them as they were at that time, capped or lower case <Grey0> also those who do not precisely switch, but that "play" at it <Korus`> but I have seen too much of it that are "playing" and this causes harm to others ... by lowering our, All our, opinion of those that chance status upward like Alex ... and also make life uncertain (?) not a good term, but I will use it, for true slaves Alxhandra appreciates those words <Korus`> this, to me, is a bad situation for us all. Korus` retakes his seat Fanci` smiles and thanks Korus` for his thoughts <Fanci`> neema ? I believe you have a comment <LadyIsollae> it actually is an insult to real slaves, imo, Korus` neema smiles ... thank you, Mistress, this one is grateful :) Korus` nods to LI Fanci` smiles to the girl <Grey0> and 'real' Free, LadyIsollae <neema> this one agrees that someone switching back and forth, especially to manipulate things to their own wishes, isnt very accepted. But this one thinks that it is the person and their behavior that really must be judged... and that is done individually and from up close, rather than from a distance. ... <neema> There are issues though that arise from this question... such as unowned slaves (an oxymoron in this one's opinion)... are they Free? Are unowned slaves merely free women with the desire to be enslaved. And also, the idea of serving all men. It is one thing to serve all when owned by one... another to simply serve all. ... Norman wrote that in each woman exists both Free woman and slave... is it any surprise that some feel such confusion? This one doesn't defend those who switch, she merely raises questions as to why this is a problem. Iron`Bear nods to Korus for his words that were also well said DrkRider will respond to that one when allowed <Fanci`> neema .. all good thoughts .. and very stimulating .. thank you. neema smiles and listens <Fanci`> slaves are very much affected by switches .. belgara{TLI} . .please .. share your thoughts <belgara{TLI}> Mistress, this one serves the Free... she has troubles thinking of an ex-slave-turned FW as a true Free person... it so confuses her at times. this one has been slave since she came to the Gorean lifestyle, and should through some quirk, she be freed... she would be totally lost. Fanci` nods .. yes .. but some wish that. And some are freed when a Master finds another .. he frees her to give her a wider field .. so it is a reality... some change. DrkRider> they once said that "Gor is cruel" <DrkRider> jeeze Fanci` smiles <Alxhandra> well said DR <Fanci`> I tend to agree .. it is W/we .. U/us .. an evolving species .. rowdy, dynamic, argumentative .. but very alive. Iron`Bear nods to DrkRider in respect. Korus` salutes one who is truely aware of his self and others Fanci` smiles to Alxhandra .. you had a comment, Sis? belgara{TLI} dark eyes bright, the Master having said what she couldn't form in words. <Alxhandra> i do not know what John Norman had in mind when he wrote the books aside from making money ... what i do know is how i feel when i am here ... what is Gor to me ? ... as on Earth there are many different walks of life ... in the books there is also great diversity, Wagon Ppls, Turians, Arians, Korobans, ... Torvaldslanders ... so perhaps what is Gor to one is not to the other, but i do believe ... Fanci` waits for Alxhandra to conclude, and Korus` will be next. <Alxhandra> that there are similar values, Truth, Honour, the joy of the journey of a realized self ... also i have been where neema and belgara have spoke of ... and alot of what they say i believe perhaps holds alot of truth ...is finished Fanci` looks to Iron`Bear .. please... your thoughts on this? Iron`Bear rises and loks tothe people in the room. <Iron`Bear> I am but a humble traveler to this place,,,,however I see that we share many common ideas and standards in our lives, when we ask the question on a switch,,,the first thing that comes into my mind is. Fanci` settles back to listen <Iron`Bear> Is switching from slave to Free and slave to Free Gorean? Alxhandra thinks good point {CSF}nyla nods to the Master <Iron`Bear> does a Free person carry a slaves attitude? <Korus`> aye! <Iron`Bear> does a slave carry a slaves? no of course not Fanci` looks around the room, noting expressions as Iron`Bear speaks {CSF}nyla raises her tiny hand <Iron`Bear> as a Gorean male I have not a slave like bone in my body. we are two different creatures....and I would like to give a quote of two to show this ,,from the books of Norman that have come to mind. 'It is easy to tell among girls which are familiar with their condition and which are not. Once a girl truly understands that she is a slave, and there is no escape for her, once she understands it truly, emotionally, categorically, intellectually, physiologically, totally, deeply, profoundly, in every cell in her beautiful body, a fantastic transformation occurs in her. She then knows she is truly a slave. She then becomes wild and free, and sexual, and cares not that she might be scorned by the free either for her miserable condition or helpless appetites; she knows she will be what she must; she has no choice; she is slave. Women, in their heart, long to submit; this is necessary for the slave girl; she must submit or die; submitted, she is thrilled to the core; she lives then for love how can a person make the transformation in a days time,,,,,,this bewilders me. 'You may judge and scorn Goreans as you wish. Know as well however that they judge and scorn you. They fulfill themselves as you do not. Hate them for their pride and power they will pity you for your shame and weakness.' we are Goreans,,,,are we not? ::Looking around::: I am sure the answer is yes.......and we judge harshly,,,,,,,, I am Gorean I judge very harshly. as I am sure we all do.... I injoyed Alxhandra point when she said ...that there are similar values, Truth, Honour, the joy of the journey of a realized self <Iron`Bear> for me it applies in one word: self-mastery Korus` nods Alxhandra doesn't think you can Master others if you haven't Mastered yourself first <Iron`Bear> I would argue that this would also apply to a Free Woman....... mastering and begging a collar,,,,do not walk down the same path. LadyIsollae listens to Iron`Bear <Iron`Bear> I thank you for your time, and I am honored you have allowed a simple warrior to speak tonight. Fanci` smiles and nods to Iron`Bear ... excellent thoughts .. and stated most clearly {CSF}nyla smiles...1well, hmm let nyla catch her breath after listening to the wise words of Master Iron`Bear...words she concurs with....as nyla understands that strong strong slave feeling...but is it not possible that a person can change their feelings?....we spoke of those that change with the weather earlier..that is the problem... nyla thinks that once is understandable...but the daily, hours, depending on the net change is unforgiveable, but it is forgiven by many slaves and free ...why do the Free People, spoken respectfully, allow such to occur if they are the "Masters"? <neema> this one means no disrespect, she merely has her own way of looking at things and offers up her ideas for your thoughts. She disagrees that we change Gor to suit ourselves, but that Gor itself is unchanging upon the pages of 25 novels. We, simply bring into our lives that which touches us deeply. For many, this is the bulk of what is written, for others, it is but pieces. This one's answer to Master Iron Bear is... they dont. <Fanci`> well stated, dear girl .. and from your heart, obviously <neema> We are talking about women at the feet of Earth men, many who are still learning what it means to them to be a man. Women, are different than men... and Norman recognized this... in that there were two major aspects to women, both free and slave. Not one or the other, but both. And being unowned... once actually feeling that transformation... is miserable... Norman never addressed this, all women in the books who were slave... were owned. <Alxhandra> Iron`Bear ... i believe that two ppl who belong together have always ... and their paths have just not met yet, so in essence and even with a few cases in the books that i can think of ... the position may not be the same, but might they travel the same path not met yet ? Iron`Bear looks to her. Alxhandra smiles Fanci` smiles, thinking that brings up a whole different plane of discussion .. that of souls who have met and loved before .. and will again. And it might be a good topic for another time :) <Iron`Bear> I do believe in kindred spritis yes M'Lady. we all here share something that is a grand stepping stone, in become Bretheren, Sisters, and so on... the world of Gor and how we view it. Fanci` listens to Iron`Bear <Alxhandra> which brings me to what neema said ... i agree with her that a woman is both ... for behind closed doors in the privacy of their home or whatever ... who is truly the Master ? Alxhandra> oops Alxhandra smiles and listens to Iron`Bear Iron`Bear smiles <Iron`Bear> for me Alxhandra I am truly the Master and she is my woman. Fanci` laughs, thinking this could go VERY far afield .. from the question of online and frequent switching <Iron`Bear> however behind close doors is certainly a diffrent matter wouldnt you agree? those things are not happening in public. <Grey0> quite so, Iron`Bear <Alxhandra> a FW should give her Man respect, etc. in public as well ... standing beside him so to say in his decisions ... for on Gor a FW was only a step above a slave so to say ... and not equal to a Man of Gor <Grey0> it is the public aspect that is disagreeable Fanci` believes LadyIsollae has the floor next <Iron`Bear> I agree Grey0 and Alxhandra <LadyIsollae> seems we got a little of topic..:) Fanci` turns to hear LadyIsollae's comments Alxhandra smiles innocently Fanci` smiles .. that's part of the process .. but we can always get back on :) <Iron`Bear> I mean if you want to even go as far as to speak of the men in the books,, there are cases where it was mentioned that a Free man like other men, however,,,,this of course was not public, and why? Because of its nature, disagreeable to the common culture of Gor... same would apply to a Free Woman and how she acted. <Fanci`> the question is, though .. about switches .. and the frequency and duration thereof <LadyIsollae> but...as to what neema and nyla stated.....what do we do in that instance...it does not seem to serve any purpose to ignore the many who change back and forth....and I could say...<s> that gor is run by Men ... so therefore, is it the FM that allows this to happen? or do we all take part in it ... I am a FW and have never wished to be slave...and find it hard to...<thinks of how to be diplomatic here> Fanci` laughs and winks, also never having even *considered* being a slave <LadyIsollae> I feel that those who go back and forth.....insult both the Free...and the real slaves ... it is hard enough to to be a FW on gor ... hard enough to gain respect from real FM here ...it happens...because it is allowed to happen Alxhandra makes a note that there are channels that don't allow it and once finding out ... they are very strict about it to the point of banning Fanci` listens to LadyIsollae, thinking ... we seem to think it never happens with males .. that only females switch .. and that simply isn't true. Why do we not think of both genders here? Alxhandra has seen men switch too <LadyIsollae> it happens to men just as easily, Fanci` Iron`Bear nodding to Alxhandra knowing his home is exactly like that, LadyIsollae looks at Alxhandra LadyIsollae: where is your home, Iron`Bear?.....<just curious> <neema> this one can only think... how can someone who does not know themselves, understand themselves and know where they belong... be a threat to this one or anyone? How can they insult this one? They only insult themselves... and show themselves for what they really are. This one doesnt know what men will say, but she cannot see expecting them to police the net... they would have no time for pleasure, merely note who is not... real...and move on Fanci` nods to neema .. that is true .. there is no way to legislate or sanction on irc... one notes .. includes them or excludes them .. and that's it. <Iron`Bear> I will soon have no home ,I am from Powwow now,,,however it will be closing the whole program on Jan 19th. <ally{C}> ally thinks that perhaps the need to "switch" comes from someone who isn't quite ready to take that all encompassing step to slavehood? For example. As a slave, when ally does something displeasing, if she is repremanded or punished, her words are apologetic with no excuses. Her excuses are only given with permission. This is only an example of course. A slave gives up her right to "free" speech, so to speak. That, in ally's opinion, is one of the hardest things to relinquish. It may seem simple to some, but once a girl takes that step to slavehood, she gives up her right to be heard. It then becomes a priviledge. <ally{C}> Sometimes, ally has seen girls switch just so that they can be heard and speak as they wish. Then they revert back. <LadyIsollae> are they true slaves then? <ally{C}> It is all very strange to this girl but ally sees
it often. Just for a voice... ally does not believe so, Mistress. neema slavery is scary LadyIsollae smiles at neema Alxhandra smiles softly at neema, yes it can be <ally{C}> The slave makes her choice and learns how to adapt. She learns often the hard way, but if she is a slave in her belly, then the only answer is to continue to learn, not to cap a nick when it suits you. Fanci` looks to Iron`Bear .. {CSF}nyla had asked you a question and I held it, working through requests for the floor. would you answer now, please? {CSF}nyla peeks up to the busy Master Iron`Bear to await his words while she collects her thoughts <Iron`Bear> of course M'Lady
... I would say this to you nyla. .but is it not
possible that a person can change their feelings? Yes of course it is possible
if you look right into the books as a example. You see that even Tarl himself
changed did her not. For a time in books 6 he had lost himself. However in book 9the quote stated this
"That boy had died in the delta of the Vosk; in his place had come Bosk of
Port Kar, ruthless and torn, but grown into his manhood: -- and now there was
another, one whom I might, if I wished, choose to call again Tarl Cabot. I had
changed. Here, with the Forkbeard, with the sea, the wind, in his hall and in
battle, I had become, somehow, much different. In the North my blood had foun
and how to stand alone" Iron`Bear falls silent {CSF}nyla smiles...1thank you, Master..that was most
helpful to this slave girl.. well, that is most good what Master Iron`Bear
said and nyla understood it...<wg> <ally{C}> um ok.. ally means more or less... not just free speech, but "Free" speech. The slave's tone can only be one way. Pleasing, period. The Free can debate, argue, even get frustrated, swear, generally rant if they choose. ally knows many girls who cannot keep the respect thing going. {CSF}nyla nods in understanding of that *laughing* <Fanci`> ally{C} .. indeed .. there is a differnce in speech, mindset of slave and Free <ally{C}> They get frustrated at being corrected, angry that they can not be "heard" and change a nick, cap it, and rant until Hell won't have it. <Fanci`> few can make a clean break between one and the other ... very few! <ally{C}> ally has, on many occasions, wished so badly that she could just spit out everything in her head... but it would not come out in a very pleasing manner if a girl did not give very careful thought to her manner of speech. The funny thing is...usually when ally sees this happen, it is a slavegirl switching to a FW to argue with another FW. <Fanci`> and the other FW might be a former slave, too .. Alxhandra thinks that even tho that may happen alot or enuf to cause discussion and concern ... Alx thinks it is ridiculous <Korus`> aye, it is Korus` agrees with Alex Fanci` shrugs .. well .. it happens <{CSF}nyla> well, guess, nyla doesn't understand being non respectful unless one is hmm insulted harmed or whatever...guess that would be just a brat...sorry but nyla is a total slave and is lost here Fanci` stands up and smiles to all present <Fanci`> we have gone over the promised time of a 2hour
forum .. which has been great .. because the ideas have been good ..and the talk has flowed like wine.
I invite you all to stay .. talk... |