<Fanci`> while we're waiting .. I might sort of outline how I think this will work ...

[20:07:14] <Fanci`> we will present a situation and it will be opened for discussion ...

[20:07:50] <Fanci`> in order to make it flow smoothly, I would appreciate the Free speaking, then others raising a hand IN Channel for a question or comment.

[20:08:07] <lee> hmmm

[20:08:38] <Fanci`> depending on the number who join us, the channel may be moderated

[20:08:39] <lee> and for those not Free nor kajir?

[20:08:56] <Fanci`> lee .. small letter would raise hand :)

[20:09:13] * lee nods

[20:09:29] <lee> just wanted to make sure

[20:09:45] <Fanci`> yes .. its easier to use the large and small letters for these things

<Korus> Fanci, a question if I may?

[20:10:34] <Fanci`> certainly

[20:10:37] <Fanci`> me turns to Korus

[20:11:33] <Korus> when we have such discussions in camp we suspend serving for the duration, what do you plan on in this?

[20:11:39] <Fanci`> definitely

[20:11:43] <Korus> so we all know

[20:11:46] <Fanci`> that would be a reason to moderate the room

[20:11:56] * Korus nods

[20:11:58] <Fanci`> so we may follow the conversation without distractions

[20:29:40] * Fanci` looks around to those assembled

[20:29:43] <Fanci`> Question: Is this a matter covered by Gorean law? or of personal ethics?

[20:29:43] <Fanci`> Is a death valid only when there are witnesses to the lifeless body?

[20:30:03] * Nyxmyst remembers this situation

<Fanci`> it is indeed a real situation .. and there is no need to use the names of individuals involved .. because the question is fascinating without the personalities

[20:31:13] * Fanci` looks to SkyeStriker`

[20:31:36] <Fanci`> What is your take on that .. was the property in fact transferred?

[20:31:48] * lee ponders quietly on this

[20:31:50] * SkyeStriker` has a quizzical look on his face.. smiles....

[20:32:08] <Aeneas> If I may throw caution to the wind....

[20:32:12] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> si

[20:32:15] <SkyeStriker`> Hmmmm this is only my opinion and not necessarily that of the management

[20:32:26] * Fanci` smiles to SkyeStriker`

[20:32:26] * lee raises his hand quietly awaiting his turn

[20:32:27] * SkyeStriker` winks

[20:32:39] <Fanci`> please .. this is a Forum for opinions .. we make no rules or laws here

[20:32:59] <Fanci`> rather, we discuss .. and hopefully think and clarify questions, in the process

[20:33:04] <SkyeStriker`> I would say yes... the property IMHO was indeed transferred

[20:33:22] <SkyeStriker`> He read the scroll in front of se

[20:33:33] <SkyeStriker`> He did take his own life...

[20:33:46] * Korus nods

[20:33:53] <SkyeStriker`> By the rules of Nature and not all others.. he is dead...

[20:33:59] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> might I reprise my conclusion from yesterday and put it up for comment?

[20:34:12] <SkyeStriker`> Only one was resurrected and that is unproven

[20:34:21] * Fanci` smiles

[20:34:22] <Aeneas> then an offer was made and accepted - in simple terms an agreement had been reached and a contract made....in strict legal terms the offer was accepted and it becomes binding

[20:34:23] <SkyeStriker`> It was I am sure not this one

[20:34:32] <Korus> and later within a day, confirmed it in front of many Free

[20:34:44] <Nyxmyst> With the amount of emotionally injured people online.. is it really a smart idea to play around with the conception of suicide for a game anyway? to hurt people.. probably for attention.. is not exactly honorable.

[20:34:59] * Fanci` nods and looks to each as they speak

[20:35:16] <Fanci`> is this a matter that is covered in any context within the Scrolls?

[20:35:16] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it does not even seem to be clear whether he in fact died or not

[20:35:24] <SkyeStriker`> By honor alone.... he would remain dead.... however this is irc...all things are possible... though not necessarily accepted

[20:35:34] <Nyxmyst> in the scrolls when people died they didn't come back :)

[20:35:48] <Aeneas> his Gor honor should make him accept his decision and leave the situation as it was

[20:36:07] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it was never stated that he died, only that he disappeared for 2 days

[20:36:12] <SkyeStriker`> Agreed Aeneas

[20:36:13] * breathy raises her hand slowly

[20:36:31] <Korus> he stated he died

[20:36:42] <Korus> in front of many Free

[20:36:44] * SkyeStriker` nods to PO an agrees

[20:36:49] <Korus> I was there

[20:36:52] * {CSF}nyla giggles at Master PhantomOp knowing his wisdom..

[20:36:57] * Fanci` looks to lee, who's hand was raised first

[20:37:55] <Fanci`> so .. in the meantime .. is the time element important? that the return was only days later? what if it had been a month or a year?

[20:38:00] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> ah

[20:38:08] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> an actual witness

[20:38:14] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> that helps

[20:38:32] <PhantomOp> ok, then I see it like this: if one makes a contract, verbal or written, to transfer property, and the basis of that transfer is contingent on their being gone from Gor, then if one leaves, their claim to said property is void

[20:38:33] <PhantomOp> however....

[20:38:33] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it seems clear that dead is dead

[20:38:40] <Nyxmyst> if he had said he was going to commit suicide and totally disappeared for a month.. how many would have started to believe it? at that point does he even deserve to be part of our community?

[20:38:44] * SkyeStriker` thinks dead is dead there is a time limit FOREVER

[20:38:46] * Korus nods

[20:38:48] <Fanci`> well... what if there had been no witness? merely his reading of the Will .. and his vow to go to the City Of Dust

[20:38:56] <lee> I can't speak on the homestone but as for the slave . . . this slave "was" his to do with as he wished having owned this slave so this "person" decided to turn the slave over to another giving up said ownership his returning regardless of the time doesn't return the ownership of the slave back to him no matter how much he gripes the deal was made period now the new owner could sell the slave back if he wished

[20:39:12] <Aeneas> but the "offer" was made and accepted - the contract and honor of the two FP's is taken and understood. Should the once dead FP return and claim his property again, he should be made to buy them from their new owner!

[20:39:23] <PhantomOp> well said, lee

[20:39:27] * lee smiles

[20:39:44] * {CSF}nyla smiles nodding her head at lee's words so very well put...

[20:39:59] * Fanci` grins to Aeneas ... I agree with that. At the very least, he should purchase them on the Open Market

[20:40:21] <Korus> aye!

[20:40:53] <lee> I don't think any Gorean will openly sell a homestone regardless of the money offered

[20:41:00] * SkyeStriker` nods

[20:41:03] * Aeneas looks to lee

[20:41:05] <PhantomOp> once transfer is made, it is done -- which is why one should be CERTAIN of their course before making such a step

[20:41:20] <SkyeStriker`> Agreed Brother

[20:41:21] <Aeneas> perhaps the Homestone is then the topic we should debate then

[20:41:47] <Fanci`> lol Aeneas .. that might be next months question ;)

[20:41:49] <Fanci`> but ..

[20:41:53] <Fanci`> that brings up a side question .. the frequent suicides that happen online. Can they be done .. with Honor?

[20:42:00] <PhantomOp> NO

[20:42:03] <Aeneas> yes

[20:42:11] * Fanci` looks to the others

[20:42:25] * lee raises his hand again

[20:42:29] <Korus> no

[20:42:46] <Aeneas> For a FP to take their own life COULD - and I stress the could - be regarded as one of the defining acts of control and of a FP's honor

[20:42:57] <Fanci`> is suicide an honorable act? it usually is to escape a depressing situation here, as in Life. Is it not more honorable to stay, struggle and perhaps win?

[20:43:19] * {CSF}nyla raises her small hand

[20:43:39] * Fanci` looks to Nyxmyst and SkyeStriker`

[20:43:42] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> why not, has one not the privilege of killing one persona to return as another. It is perhaps vulgar to do it in the form of suicide,

[20:43:43] <Fanci`> your thoughts on this?

[20:44:01] <Aeneas> Fanci`, I think that depends on your view on the world

[20:44:11] <Nyxmyst> I don't think any of it is honorable.. but mostly because I find the game aspect of it to be severely harmful. Is it honorable to harm people for your own gains?

[20:44:24] <Aeneas> Does it actually say anywhere in the scrolls that suicide is not an honorable option for a FP?

[20:44:33] <Korus> I agree Fanci, it is not Honorable here as in life.

[20:44:41] * Fanci` looks around

[20:44:46] <SkyeStriker`> If it came to my death... I should want that in Battle as is should be... to take my own.. I would find uneasy for my live is precious to me an all I own.

[20:45:19] <Fanci`> these are difficult questions .. and there are no easy answers. We're not here to declare Right or Wrong .. but rather, to look at and explore these issues.

[20:45:19] <Aeneas> and if at the end of a battle and you were faced with the options of slavery or ritual honorable suicide which one would you take SkyeStriker`

[20:45:24] <Korus> does it say it is, Aeneas?

[20:45:31] <Nyxmyst> at that point suicide is the honorable thing to do

[20:45:44] <Nyxmyst> but that's a major difference from slitting ones wrists because you just cant hack it

[20:45:59] * SkyeStriker` ponders this

[20:46:14] <Nyxmyst> one is cowardice the other is the escape from degradation

[20:46:28] * Fanci` nods to Nyxmyst ... some do it when a beloved slave runs away or begs release ... some do it when a Master rejects them

[20:46:28] <SkyeStriker`> Agreed..... however.....

[20:46:42] <Korus> even in the scrolls the Free did NOT take their own

[20:47:02] <Aeneas> but it does not say in the scrolls that suicide is not an honorable option for the Free

[20:47:14] <SkyeStriker`> Was not JN so captured many times.. yet he did ki take his life... he planned an made his escape to be Free once more...

[20:47:18] <Korus> they were given the choice of Honorable death or life as a slave.

[20:47:31] <Forkbeard> May I ask a question, is it suicide for a Free Woman to ask for death, rather then accept slavery?

[20:47:36] <Aeneas> so then Korus, suicide is honorable

[20:47:37] <SkyeStriker`> Is it not a Warriors duty to attempt escape...

[20:47:57] <Aeneas> is it not a warrior's duty to fight?

[20:47:58] <Korus> no!

[20:48:24] <PhantomOp> it is according to the codes of the warrior to fight

[20:48:26] <Korus> suicide is never honorable!

[20:48:27] * Fanci` looks to Korus

[20:48:33] <PhantomOp> even in the face of death

[20:48:38] <PhantomOp> however....

[20:49:22] <Nyxmyst> I wish you all well.. I'm not into the more.. umm.. rp aspects of Gor.

[20:49:32] <PhantomOp> Tarl was once advised to fall upon his sword to thwart the plans of the Priest-Kings -- and he did not do so, not because it was dishonorable, but because of his hatred for them

[20:49:35] <Aeneas> There are numerous instances in history on earth where warriors have chosen death because they were outnumbered. They knew they would die and to me that is a form of ritual suicide

[20:49:59] <Aeneas> as they were fighting for a cause they thought just there deaths were a) through fighting and b) suicide

[20:50:06] <Korus> yes, but not on Gor.

[20:50:07] <Fanci`> good point. The well-known "suicide mission" .. but always giving the life in a Greater Cause

[20:50:21] <PhantomOp> in a way, Aeneas, it is -- but there comes a difference between what is according to the books and how Gor translates online

[20:50:36] <Forkbeard> btw, in Okinawa, Japanese soldiers preferred death before surrender

[20:50:50] <PhantomOp> the problem I have with online suicides is this:

[20:50:56] * lee quietly awaits his turn his hand high in the air

[20:51:06] * Fanci` nods to lee .. your turn is noted :)

[20:51:10] <PhantomOp> nearly every one I have seen or heard of was little more than a drama play

[20:51:37] * Korus nods agreement with PhantomOp

[20:51:45] <PhantomOp> there is NOTHING honorable about that -- pity is known as the unforgivable emotion

[20:51:59] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> what else could an online suicide be than a play

[20:52:07] * Fanci` smiles and nods

[20:52:08] <SkyeStriker`> Honor of the Urthan Nipponese is well known.. however .. a good number did not... This like this discussion is a matter of not what is right or wrong.. but what is right for that person.

[20:52:08] <Fanci`> indeed

[20:52:10] <PhantomOp> exactly my point

[20:52:18] <Aeneas> I bow to your greater knowledge, PhantomOp I can only speak from my studies of Chinese, Japanese and Korean history

[20:52:32] * Fanci` looks to the boy lee and smiles ...

[20:52:39] <Fanci`> please, lee .. your thoughts on this?

[20:52:42] <PhantomOp> and in those cultures, there was honor, Aeneas, I agree

[20:53:00] <Aeneas> but also you may look to the Greek and Roman culture as well, PhantomOp

[20:53:03] <lee> Gorean philosophy almost directly compares to that of the Japanese which does consider suicide to be an option when faced with possible dishonor or other similar act but it's the greatest dishonor to commit such just because one can't hack it

[20:53:15] * moon^light{MPS} raises her hand

[20:53:26] * Aeneas quietly applauds the boy's comments

[20:53:27] * breathy lowers her hand

[20:53:57] * Fanci` apologizes to breathy for missing her hand earlier

[20:53:59] * {CSF}nyla grins at breathy...don't give up

[20:54:07] <Fanci`> please, dear girl .. tell us your thoughts

[20:55:07] * Fanci` looks to breathy

[20:55:45] <breathy> breathy believes that the Master who entered into a contract with His friend and slave giving His friend ownership of homestone and slave gave up any rights to reclaim them and should be tossed out of His city caste, clan dishonored for saying one thing and doing another

[20:55:56] <breathy> a girl was long winded Mistress

[20:56:00] * Fanci` nods to breathy

[20:56:04] <PhantomOp> well spoken, breathy

[20:56:11] <Fanci`> I think that is the sense of most here

[20:56:17] * {CSF}nyla hugs breathy and nods

[20:56:20] <SkyeStriker`> Well put breathy

[20:56:30] * {CSF}nyla keeps her hand up, not giving up either...

[20:56:32] * breathy smiles thanks E.everyone

[20:56:38] <Fanci`> that He made a promise .. and the others had every reason to think it was an honest one.

[20:56:44] <Fanci`> {CSF}nyla .. your turn, luv :)

[20:56:55] * {CSF}nyla giggles....thank you, Mistress..

[20:57:24] <{CSF}nyla> ok..first of all the discussion has been on two levels....Gorean philosophy & Urthen philosophy of suicidal deaths....

[20:57:30] <breathy> whether the choice to chose to live or die was dishonorable the going back on His word was the most dishonorable act

[20:58:05] * Aeneas nods in agreement with breathy

[20:58:13] * moon^light{MPS} keeps her hand up as well

[20:58:18] <{CSF}nyla> on Urth....each society has its own culture and beliefs.....vastly different...not even comparable. but here we are speaking of a Gorean philosophy. which is different

[20:58:30] * Fanci` listens closely to {CSF}nyla

[20:58:57] <{CSF}nyla> In the scrolls Tarl didn't give up because the going got rough...even strapped to a beam floating down the river he stayed firm...

[20:58:59] <Korus> if a FP has lost their Honor, then suicide has always been deemed to restore such, but how do they return from the dead.

[20:59:42] <{CSF}nyla> He survived against all.....so in Gorean terms a contract was made be it a death contract, a FC contract, or a ko`lar pact....all vows and ones word of honor....

[20:59:56] <Forkbeard> wait didn't he change for Tarl to Bosk, because he lost his honor to the Panther Girls?

[21:00:10] <PhantomOp> rence girls

[21:00:16] <{CSF}nyla> so this Master made this contract...how can he rescind it....

[21:00:17] <PhantomOp> but yes, he did

[21:00:19] * Fanci` laughs .. that is a different question, I believe

[21:00:31] <Korus> he changed his name, but did not die.

[21:00:35] <{CSF}nyla> Ones word is his life and honor.....

[21:00:37] * Fanci` waits for {CSF}nyla to conclude, so moon^light{MPS} can be recognized

[21:00:45] <PhantomOp> agreed, nyla

[21:01:39] <moon^light{MPS}> does this Master's giving up his Homestone make him a Gorean exile, regardless of death or life, Mistress?

[21:02:08] * Fanci` *blinks* I don't know! My knowledge of Gor is limited

[21:02:14] * Fanci` looks to the others

[21:02:21] <PhantomOp> a very good point, I think -- to be without Home Stone is to be outlaw

<Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> none would respect a homestoneless man

[21:02:40] <Forkbeard> No Homestone, No Honor

[21:02:40] * SkyeStriker` nods

[21:02:48] <Korus> he has his homestone and slaves back again.

[21:02:58] <Aeneas> but did not Tarl have respect?

[21:03:08] <PhantomOp> there are three choices for one without Home Stone -- Outlaw, Slave, or to enter the Sardar

[21:03:16] <Aeneas> and he was most certainly homestone-less

[21:03:19] <Fanci`> in actuality, He does. But .. in the scrolls, it would mean exile. Is that correct?

[21:03:26] <SkyeStriker`> Agreed PO

[21:03:27] <Aeneas> be it by the wishes of the PK's or otherwise

[21:04:03] <PhantomOp> and so he was -- he ended up having to wander Gor

[21:04:30] <Aeneas> but by wandering Gor he earned respect that had not been know before at that level

[21:04:34] <Kytherea> hmmmm.. in my eyes he sought to rebuild.. himself... his strengths before seeking a HomeStone again... which he did.. when Port Kar got a HomeStone...

[21:04:45] <Forkbeard> I think in Tarl's case, he won some honor back in the defense of Port Kar

[21:04:54] * Kytherea smiles at Forkbeard... gmta

[21:04:59] * Fanci` listens, watching the eyes of all who speak

[21:05:12] <PhantomOp> this is true, and by so doing, Tarl gained a new Home Stone

[21:05:27] <PhantomOp> but that differs from the case here

[21:05:40] * Korus nods

[21:05:41] <Korus> aye

[21:05:48] <Korus> very different

[21:06:02] * Fanci` looks around ...

[21:06:08] <PhantomOp> the one that sought to reclaim his Home Stone after having given it away -- something no Gorean would conceive of -- holds no honor in my eyes

[21:06:19] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> this case is absurd, who would voluntarily give away a homestone

[21:06:31] <Korus> agreed PhantomOp

[21:06:31] <PhantomOp> >>>insert standard disclaimer here <<<

[21:06:37] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it is family or city property

[21:06:51] <Kytherea> I was only speaking of Tarl or Bosk .. not knowing the base issue here..

[21:06:53] * Kytherea smiles

[21:07:23] <SkyeStriker`> We have crossed many lines on this.. wondered into several side paths and all good ones.. However the original query was .. Is the dead man allowed to return from the grave an reclaim all...... not of ritual suicide, capture or anything else.... I say NO Dead is Dead no matter how you cut it. :-)

[21:07:46] <Fanci`> if I'm hearing correctly, it seems the question is one of honor, as opposed to whether it can be done legally. And the prevailing sentiment is that a Homestone given away, through actual (or claim of one's own) death cannot properly be taken back.

[21:07:46] <Korus> amen.

[21:07:54] * Aeneas agrees with SkyeStriker`

[21:08:04] <PhantomOp> even the meanest of peasants would fight as a larl to guard their Home Stone, and many are the peasant fields that have drank the blood of Warriors that have thought to ignore the sanctity of the Home Stone

[21:08:05] * Fanci` smiles, enjoying this spirited discussion very much

[21:08:12] <Aeneas> Fanci`, I'm not sure it can be done biologically either!

[21:08:17] <Fanci`> LOL

[21:08:20] <Fanci`> true, Aeneas :)

[21:08:38] * {CSF}nyla smiles brightly...

[21:08:49] * Fanci` looks around and smiles

[21:09:01] <Fanci`> I wonder if we might like to move on .. and consider a different question?

[21:09:02] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> naturally it could be recovered through combat or stealth

[21:09:05] * Korus grins

[21:09:10] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> but dead is still dead

[21:09:15] <PhantomOp> sounds good to me, Fanci`

[21:09:17] * {CSF}nyla giggles....

[21:09:26] <Korus> yes Fanci

[21:09:36] <SkyeStriker`> I think you have Fanci <winks>

[21:09:45] * Fanci` laughs lightly, since we are here to discuss and explore .. not to make Solemn Rulings or Precedents for another court to overturn

(CLICK HERE TO GO TO ISSUE #2)