<Fanci`> here is a situation that is interesting, I think:

[21:10:46] <Fanci`> Question: Does the FC protect an FW from enslavement, even if Her behavior is inappropriate?

[21:10:46] <Fanci`> Was the absence of 3 witnesses a factor, that would invalidate the enslavement?

[21:10:46] <Fanci`> If a FW behaves inappropriately only in private, can She avoid enslavement?

[21:10:47] <Fanci`> If the male FC protested the enslavement of His Partner, what steps could He take?

[21:11:17] * Fanci` leans back and smiles

[21:11:40] <PhantomOp> well, there are three witnesses, for starters

[21:11:43] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> combat

[21:11:51] * SkyeStriker` thinks she has done her homework on these queries

[21:11:54] <PhantomOp> the Master, and the two FW

[21:12:04] <LadyIsollae> if a FW is acting slave like, why would he, Fanci`?

[21:12:11] * breathy raises her hand

[21:12:34] <Kytherea> if the FW is acting in a clearly slave like manner.. she is putting her Freedom in jeopardy... if she is Free she knows the rules.. I feel behave.. or be in danger of face stripping..

[21:12:40] <Grey0> then, they would be getting what they ask for, would they not??

[21:12:47] <PhantomOp> agreed

[21:13:11] * SkyeStriker` nods....in agreement with the others

[21:13:12] <Fanci`> an important point here ... is the fact that She is FC. What about the rights of Her FC?

[21:13:33] <PhantomOp> and to further the point, her actions reflect on her FC -- they cannot tarnish his honor, but there will be those that question how he could let her act as she did

[21:13:43] <Kytherea> let her

[21:13:44] <Grey0> SHE, unilaterally, is putting her freedom in jeopardy

[21:13:55] <LadyIsollae> If a Master can sell his FC for not obeying...then her slave like name is no different

[21:13:57] <Kytherea> he is not there.. why should he be responsible for her actions?

[21:14:06] * {CSF}nyla immediately raises her hand.....

[21:14:17] <Grey0> because they are paired, Kytherea

[21:14:26] <Fanci`> should the enslaving Master, in fact, just capture her? and then should she be turned over to the FC for discipline?

[21:14:27] <Grey0> their actions reflect upon one another

[21:14:29] <Aeneas> Fanci`, may I ask what context this group finds themselves in?

[21:14:33] <PhantomOp> yes, Ky, let her -- if he is her FC, then they should have had significant discussions prior to the incident

[21:14:40] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it is clear from many examples that a free woman only remains free by force of arms, and if that fails to the point that she becomes collared she is no longer free

[21:14:41] <Aeneas> surely this has some bearing on the behavior - no matter how salubrious

[21:14:46] <PhantomOp> and she should be well aware of what is and is not acceptable

[21:14:52] <Fanci`> Aeneas .. three people chatting in a room. No particular scenario.

[21:14:57] <Kytherea> maybe so.. but he is not Her and should not could not be held responsible for Her actions... he could punish her for them... but it should not tarnish Him

[21:15:33] <PhantomOp> let me pose this question -- a bit of a tangent:

[21:16:02] <PhantomOp> what do you think of a Master that has unruly slaves, and allows them to wander Gor as such?

[21:16:19] <PhantomOp> your image of this Man is a bit lessened, is it not?

[21:16:26] * Fanci` nods

[21:16:34] <LadyIsollae> absolutely

[21:16:38] * Aeneas nods

[21:16:48] <PhantomOp> by the same token, the Man is responsible for his FC in much the same sense

[21:17:04] <Aeneas> his inability to control his slaves reflects directly on his inability to gain control over himself

[21:17:25] <PhantomOp> I would never take a Free Companion that would go about acting in such a manner as to bring a lessening of reputation for myself

[21:17:46] <Grey0> quite so, PhantomOp

[21:17:46] <PhantomOp> if I am unsure of this FW, I will certainly not take her to represent me

[21:18:18] <Fanci`> so .. in this case .. since the Free Man FC was not there to act, one way or the other .... does one assume the behavior had occurred before and He had not dealt with it?

[21:18:22] <Korus> Aye!

[21:18:33] <SkyeStriker`> Well put PO

[21:18:34] <PhantomOp> I would assume so

[21:19:01] * breathy keeps her hand raised

[21:19:27] <Fanci`> let's assume He wanted to take her back, restore her Free status and be His FC again .. what would He do?

[21:19:42] * Fanci` smiles to breathy ... thanks for being patient, luv

[21:19:55] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> he would not

[21:19:55] <PhantomOp> he'd be required to purchase her

[21:20:01] <Forkbeard> all depends

[21:20:02] <PhantomOp> IF he so desired

[21:20:03] * SkyeStriker` nods

[21:20:17] * Fanci` looks to Forkbeard ... please .. elaborate.

[21:20:18] * breathy smiles back at Mistress Fanci in acknowledgement

[21:20:30] <Forkbeard> I think if branded or pierced, no backsies

[21:20:34] * Kytherea nods to PhantomOp.. but it has been said.. that this FM would not have the right to enslave another's FC.. I am curious about your opinions of this

[21:20:36] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> none would make a consort of a slave

[21:21:06] <Fanci`> but .. in the scrolls, Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse ... were not some, in fact, elevated to consort?

[21:21:14] <Aeneas> Fanci`, I am afraid I must leave this engaging discussion

[21:21:21] <Korus> no Fance

[21:21:23] <Fanci`> Aeneas .. I'm so glad you came in :)

[21:21:25] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> haven't read these scrolls

[21:21:29] <Aeneas> but please I will be back to listen to yourself and others on topics

[21:21:35] <Korus> they were freed and made FC's

[21:21:41] <Kytherea> be well Aeneas

[21:21:41] <Aeneas> and throw my opinion to the circle as well

[21:21:42] <Fanci`> well, that's what I meant :)

[21:21:48] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> but witness Tarl's behavior when he recovered his

[21:21:51] <Fanci`> freed... made FCs

[21:22:04] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> and he was not even true gorean

[21:22:35] * Fanci` looks now to breathy ... as a slave, how does this seem to you?

[21:22:45] <Forkbeard> Their is one more Gorean opinion, once a woman tastes the true joy of being a slave, she can never go back to being a Free woman

[21:23:00] * {CSF}nyla grins and bites her lip

[21:23:00] * Fanci` nods

[21:23:04] <Fanci`> I've heard that, Forkbeard

[21:23:08] <breathy> breathy has been reading a lot of Gor and everywhere is written that if a FW acts in a provocative slave-like manner she is to be stripped of veils and collared her FC could be given option to buy her but that would be up to whether or not the Master who stripped her desires to sell Her.

[21:23:16] * SkyeStriker` smiles to Forkbeard

[21:23:19] <Kytherea> I disagree Forkbeard

[21:23:24] <PhantomOp> and as to the right to enslave, why would he not have that right?

[21:24:32] <Kytherea> I have read.. that one of the inherent differences in a true slave a a true FW... is that freed.. a slave will find another Master... a true FW if freed after being enslaved. will seek her Free Status once again

[21:25:01] <Kytherea> not all burn to be slave as is often believed to be the base truth

[21:25:07] * Fanci` looks to breathy .. you make a good point .. we have been ignoring the options of the capturing Master, who apparently had full right to do as He did.

[21:25:24] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> in many of the books I have read free women act provocatively. again it is not behavior but force of arms that maintains their freedom

[21:25:33] <breathy> thanks Mistress for the compliment

[21:26:09] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> any master who succeeds in doing it has the right

[21:27:01] * Fanci` looks around .. are there any others, Free or slave, who would like to comment on this?

[21:27:05] <LadyIsollae> a question if I may

[21:27:33] <Fanci`> LadyIsollae .. please

[21:27:34] * SkyeStriker` looks to Isollae

[21:27:40] <LadyIsollae> if a FW was acing slave like..would any amount of Warriors truly come to her aid?

[21:27:56] * {CSF}nyla raises her hand

[21:27:57] <Paloma> Tal Korus

[21:27:59] * PhantomOp snorts derisively

[21:28:08] <PhantomOp> I'd be more likely to aid in her collaring

[21:28:12] * Fanci` looks around to the Masters and grins

[21:28:29] * SkyeStriker` grins to PO...

[21:28:35] <Kytherea> that is true LadyIsollae... but the situation might not be a fair one.. in that case she may need protection from her Swords

[21:28:55] <LadyIsollae> once perhaps....twice ...maybe...after that....no

[21:28:55] <katorah{CT}> greetings Mistress Kytherea

[21:29:04] <Kytherea> I know if I were in that situation I would call those that I know would protect me

[21:29:22] <PhantomOp> if she acts in a provocative and inciteful manner, the only protection she requires is that of the steel locked about her neck

[21:29:33] * Fanci` looks to katorah{CT} .. the scenario, though, is that the FW acted provocatively, indeed even slutty perhaps

[21:29:43] <Fanci`> lol .. not katorah{CT} .. I meant, Kytherea

[21:29:45] * breathy nods in PhantomOp's direction

[21:30:11] <SkyeStriker`> But, Kytherea ... would you act such....... I think not.. not in that manner....

[21:30:20] <Kytherea> well.. bottom line.. if she acts in a slave like manner.. her Freedom is at risk.. but none of you answered my question

[21:30:31] <SkyeStriker`> Again the questions has strayed to sidelights

[21:30:32] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> all that truly matters though is that she was enslaved

[21:30:41] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> that makes her a slave

[21:30:41] <Kytherea> about whether another has the right to enslave the FC of another..

[21:30:59] * Fanci` looks around, hoping for a consensus .. wondering if it has to do with Honoring the roles we choose when we come to Gor. If we are to be FW, then we must behave as such. Or... risk the consequences.

[21:31:02] <Kytherea> it was said the Honorable thing to do was to chain her.. and call her FC

[21:31:05] <PhantomOp> they do, Kytherea

[21:31:13] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it is rather irrelevant why it was done

[21:31:16] <Kytherea> I disagreed with this too

[21:31:22] <Kytherea> but it did come up

[21:31:26] <LadyIsollae> if her FC wishes to 'ransom' her then fine

[21:32:07] <Korus> All seem to forget something

[21:32:26] <PhantomOp> if she acts in such manner, then the Man has the right to do so, regardless of her status as FC or not

[21:32:29] <Korus> once a slave, her FC'ship is void.

[21:32:39] <LadyIsollae> true Korus

[21:33:08] * Kytherea smiles to PhantomOp I agree

[21:33:16] * Fanci` nods

[21:33:19] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> Kytherea, If one has the power to do it, then on Gor one has the right to do it

[21:33:20] <SkyeStriker`> Hers yes Brother but there is the Contract... and its properties to the Master

[21:33:34] <Fanci`> am I hearing that She gave up all FW rights .. as well as FC rights .. with the inappropriate behavior?

[21:33:44] <PhantomOp> well said, Le_Serpent

[21:33:54] <PhantomOp> you are, Fanci`

[21:33:56] * Korus nods

[21:33:58] * breathy nods

[21:34:03] <Korus> true Brother

[21:34:24] <SkyeStriker`> Facts or this a FW or FC is just that... and by virtue of her respect an that of others to her

[21:34:31] <SkyeStriker`> When she lessens that

[21:34:34] * {CSF}nyla concurs.....

[21:34:40] <Kytherea> but I have found that most Gorean Men on Gor will be honorable and warn the FW of her danger.... giving her a chance to correct it...

[21:34:42] <SkyeStriker`> She gives up her rights in that act

[21:34:51] <Fanci`> SkyeStriker` .. would you comment on the contract. That is easily left out, yet its a valid document from Her FC's point of view.

[21:35:14] <SkyeStriker`> His rights are in the Contract

[21:35:22] <SkyeStriker`> Set out in scroll

[21:35:23] * {CSF}nyla raises her hand again

[21:35:50] <SkyeStriker`> I have burnt se of such....

[21:36:11] * Fanci` listens to SkyeStriker`

[21:36:15] <Kytherea> does the contract override the right for the other FM to enslave her?

[21:36:26] <breathy> raises her hand again

[21:36:35] <SkyeStriker`> Not the point Sister we stay once more...

[21:36:46] <SkyeStriker`> Her act gave that rights

[21:36:49] <LadyIsollae> are you going by the book or irc, Kytherea

[21:37:10] <SkyeStriker`> Let me put this to you Sister

[21:37:13] <Kytherea> they mix for me.... the two... not sure how much

[21:37:22] <SkyeStriker`> If you were to FC

[21:37:22] * Kytherea listens to Skye

[21:37:29] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> not much in my experience

[21:37:44] <SkyeStriker`> You would be of virtue

[21:37:58] <SkyeStriker`> You would NOT act in that manner

[21:38:04] <SkyeStriker`> If you did..

[21:38:13] <LadyIsollae> according to the books...IF an FC is captured the FC contract is voided out...

[21:38:13] <SkyeStriker`> Then why would you remain as you are

[21:38:24] <SkyeStriker`> A FW or FC

[21:38:36] <SkyeStriker`> you would beg kolar an be done with it

[21:38:49] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> it stands to reason that a self respecting warrior would not choose a lascivious woman in the first place

[21:38:50] * Kytherea ponders that

[21:38:50] <SkyeStriker`> To say you would hide behind FC... is in error

[21:39:06] * Fanci` looks to {CSF}nyla and smiles to the girl .. now, your thoughts, please?

[21:39:08] <SkyeStriker`> Agreed LSQD

[21:39:23] * {CSF}nyla smiles...hmmm speaking MOST respectfully here... *giggle*

[21:39:25] * Korus nods

[21:39:37] * Kytherea agrees... I don't think a FC FW should be able to hide bad behavior behind her FC

[21:39:54] <Forkbeard> capture negated everything

[21:40:15] <LadyIsollae> Kytherea, I think that FC has less chance of hiding bad behavior then a slave does

[21:40:23] <{CSF}nyla> If a FW acts totally inappropriate or slutty she is going so of her own free will....why should she be warned..... she must accept the results of her actions... & yes in the scrolls the contract would be null & void as she has nullified it by her actions...we must pay the piper when we play

[21:40:30] * {CSF}nyla lowers her eyes respectfully

[21:40:40] <Fanci`> so the behavior voided the contract .. and her FC is just a Master, no longer her FC. Is that it?

[21:40:43] * breathy keeps her hand risen

[21:40:56] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> no

[21:41:04] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> not the behavior

[21:41:05] <Kytherea> only if the other FM CHOOSES to sell her to her former FC

[21:41:14] * Fanci` smiles to breathy and holds up a finger for just one more minute, then its her turn

[21:41:15] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> the capture voided the contract

[21:41:24] * breathy types in readiness

[21:41:41] * Forkbeard remembers talk of certain FC talking walks on lonely bridges hoping to be captured

[21:42:01] <SkyeStriker`> And her rights to any property she had.. is now his... by so voiding it

[21:42:10] <Fanci`> breathy ... please, let us hear from you.

[21:42:15] <breathy> the FC obviously chose unwisely when choosing the FW as His consort therefore He should live with the consequences of the FW getting herself enslaved

[21:42:16] <SkyeStriker`> As well as his recovery of that he gifted her..

[21:43:08] <Fanci`> breathy .. that results in Him being disrespected, perhaps .. is that fair?

[21:43:29] <breathy> shouldn't He have known her well to chose her for His consort?

[21:43:30] <SkyeStriker`> Fanci ... Gor is NOT fair :-)

[21:43:39] * SkyeStriker` winks

[21:43:39] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> why should anything be fair?

[21:43:40] <Fanci`> perhaps He was so smitten He didn't see the "handwriting on the wall"

[21:43:47] <breathy> if not than isn't that dishonor

[21:43:52] <Fanci`> true. Gor is not fair.

[21:43:53] * {CSF}nyla rolls her eyes and giggles..

[21:43:55] <Forkbeard> like Urth is <smile>

[21:44:11] <SkyeStriker`> Agreed Forkbeard <s>

[21:44:25] * Korus nods

[21:44:26] * rosemerrie smiles at Forkbeard and nods

[21:44:39] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> and he could recover any lost honor by fighting the man who took her

[21:45:05] * Fanci` smiles and wonders if we can agree here .. the FW was justly enslaved .. the FC was voided by the woman's own behavior . .and the capturing Master has himself a new slave, and all was correctly done.

[21:45:12] * Ky`ria leans over to Paloma and whispers as she points to various Free in the Theater. telling her of them

[21:45:13] <SkyeStriker`> Aye he could ... but.. why.. if she so slutted herself to them.... he chose poorly as stated

[21:45:20] * Paloma smiles and nods

[21:45:21] <breathy> nods nods nods

[21:45:30] * {CSF}nyla shakes her head vigorously

[21:45:31] * Fanci` laughs quietly

[21:45:51] <Fanci`> I think we have a consensus on this one ... pretty much ;)

[21:46:00] * Korus nods

[21:46:11] <SkyeStriker`> Whets the score so far Fanci?

[21:46:22] <Fanci`> actually .. we're a fairly agreeable group!

[21:46:24] <Fanci`> lol

[21:46:26] <SkyeStriker`> Question one an two

[21:46:28] <Kytherea> I am curious.. was there a consensus on the prior discussion?

[21:46:42] <Le_Serpent_Qui_Danse> I didn't say I thought he would free her afterwards

[21:46:42] <Kytherea> about a dead man reclaiming his HomeStone

[21:46:43] <Fanci`> we've had two Questions .. and largely agreed on both

[21:46:55] * Paloma listens and absorbs the discussion

[21:47:05] <{CSF}nyla> Death is death...there is no resurrection except at Easter possibly

[21:47:17] <Fanci`> Kytherea . the thinking was .. that the transfer of property was valid. That no proper reclaim could be made.

[21:47:18] * breathy giggles at nyla's words

[21:47:23] <SkyeStriker`> Unproven nyla... its hearsay

[21:47:29] * SkyeStriker` grins

[21:47:32] * Kytherea nods to Fanci` and also agrees with that

[21:47:37] * {CSF}nyla looks up and gets out her books... *laughing*

[21:48:26] * Fanci` grins and winks to everyone ...

[21:48:33] <PhantomOp> I regret having to depart, but I would like to leave my name in channel to be able to log this, if there are no objections -- I have greatly enjoyed the discussion to this point

[21:48:34] <Fanci`> now .. here comes a very interesting one

[21:48:46] * JohnJ focuses back on channel

[21:49:34] <Fanci`> we have discussed the reasons an FW can be rightly enslaved ..

[21:49:37] <Fanci`> the next question is: